Marketing Basics With a Direct Response Guru
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In this episode:
On Episode 4 of this podcast, explore the world of marketing through the lens of science, going from the basics of how branding works to the brain patterns of consumers. Adam Kemper of Plumb Marketing will be taking off his cape and exposing his superpower. He can tell a story casually and effortlessly, almost like a survival instinct. And like any good superhero, he wants to use his gifts to change the world.
As a consumer activation specialist, Adam teaches us about the fundamentals of the marketing world and how to stay relevant, unique, and make the best of the shot you have. While you may not expect it at first, Adam shows us that the key to efficient marketing could actually be through the lens of neuroscience.
The brain associates good things with the people that do them for you.
Practice being the problem solver. Be the brand that loves you back.
“It’s about inserting yourself into that brain pattern and saying, how am I going to make people smile?”
TOPICS DISCUSSED:
Adam’s Origin Story (3:06)
Cutting Through the White Noise (7:22)
Science Behind Branding (11:16)
Plumb Marketing (17:26)
Client Example (21:49)
Picking a Lane (32:02)
Small Step Strategies (40:50)
Neuroscience Marketing (46:18)
How to Support Host and Guest (48:28)
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Max Gerson (00:08):
Welcome to the Brand Wolfe podcast, Branding For The Rest Of Us, where we promise to deliver big ideas to small businesses. On today's show, we're gonna talk about marketing because we've been talking a lot about marketing. We're in week, whatever of quarantine, and a lot of what our clients are talking about is not squishy, fluffy strategy. People are talking about what can I do today? So if that kind of describes you and your current situation, maybe if you're running a low volume, high value business model, right? You don't sell a thousand things a year. You need to sell like 12. If you sell 12 of your things, you had a great year. A lot of these people are saying, if I can just get in front of that person,
Max Gerson (00:58):
I'm good. I don't need any help, but how do I get to that first date? Our guest today is Adam Kemper of Plumb Marketing. And Adam has a superpower and he knows how to use it. He knows how to get let in like many people who have a superpower and a gift and a talent. This was catalyzed in Adam at a very young age. And Adam tells this story casually and effortlessly, but I think this was really survival instinct, right? Necessity really is the mother of invention and Adam's ability to get let in meant a lot to the, the, his quality of life when he was growing up. But today he's leveraged that superpower in a really unique way by working at Plumb Marketing. So, so Plumb Marketing is a Denver based agency. They've been around since 1996, they've served over 800 clients. They have fulfilled over 1 million products.
Max Gerson (01:58):
Long story short Plumb Marketing is not only a great brand, but in Denver, they are really an institution. So Adam is really aligned his superpower with the type of agency where he can deploy it really well. So without further ado, my friend, my power partner, a marketing guru, Adam Kemper of Plumb Marketing.
Adam Kemper (02:22):
Max, thanks for having me on really glad to be here.
Adam Kemper (02:25):
Adam, your career has not been a ladder. It's been a web, I believe, right? You've had all these different experiences. And I actually think it's really important cuz I've had a web of a career too. And when, when you have that type of a web, every thread makes the whole thing stronger. And what that means is you and I, I don't think we sell products. I think when we are talking to clients, we are focusing on solving a problem. What is the desired outcome? What does the business need to have happen if we're going to make this investment and how do we reverse engineer that to life?
Max Gerson (03:05):
Exactly.
Max Gerson (03:07):
So how did you get good at solving problems?
Max Gerson (03:11):
Well, you know you mentioned it in the introduction. It starts out with being a little brother. I grew up with a brother with a large personality. I joined Boy Scouts and about six months later, my brother decided I wasn't as nerdy as he thought it was to start with. And I was having a good time. So he joined and brought that big personality with him. And I found myself kind of on the outside looking in and it became a trial and error environment for me with a lot of net. And I'm, I'm really thankful for that because you know, you first you try your wine and you complain, well, that goes poorly. And then you try brute force like me if I can say that but when that doesn't work, either you find yourself having to really pull yourself together and think, and I realized at some point, you know, I was young enough that I really wish I could remember how I came to it.
Max Gerson (04:04):
But I know that I reached a point where I decided that I was going to get people to like me by being interested in him and my brother. Well, his big personality went so far, but he used to consider me manipulative because what you do to get people, to like you and get you into the group, always kind of bothered him. And I figured out later it was because it was a skill he didn't have because not everybody does, you know, that genuine curiosity, that ability to flip yourself into somebody else's shoes genuinely, and be curious about what it's like not to judge, not to say this is right and wrong and you should live your life this way. Just a genuine curiosity about what other people's experiences are. And through friends through high school, that just became sort of a reflex for me when I met people, being a natural people, pleaser through that.
Max Gerson (05:00):
And then, you know, you mentioned career wise the first 10 years of my career was learning what not to do. I sat in a cubicle in corporate America and learned what a fresh version of hell looks like. And then once I learned that you could make choices. I started doing things where I got to flex that empathy muscle. I got to go out. And from a payroll standpoint, I started selling payroll because it kind of related to the finance world that I came out of in a loose way. But really it was, I understood how to sit down with a business owner and say, what makes your life miserable? And then let me see if I can reverse engineer, show you how my product fixes that.
Max Gerson (05:39):
The big lesson here is this narrative of having the older brother that was excluding you from the circle of friends you couldn't get in. This is a marketing narrative, right? So think about being the younger brother who, who does that represent that represents a small business and they're competing. They've got some big brothers competition that's established that has more resources, right? And they're keeping us out. So what can you do? How does this translate to your marketing? Are you begging for the business? Are you being really annoying? You just keep knocking on the door. Do you just shout, buy me, buy me, buy me. Or do you focus on being more delightful to the other person? Be the brand that loves you back? If you are a small business, if you feel like you're on the outside looking in, you know, a lot of business owners, it's like, they know they need to market, but there's a lot of fear there. Like why am I investing in this thing? I don't know what the return's gonna be. I don't know what to do. I'm not sure how to get started. Call the web developer, call the SEO guy, the PPC guy, you know, is there anyone out there helping small businesses to get led in by being more delightful? No, I don't think there is, but I think that's a lot of what you guys do at Plumb, right?
Max Gerson (07:01):
Absolutely. It's it's about taking that pivot and saying, you know, in this time, right now we hear how many commercials that are starting to all sound alike during these uncertain times, during these uncertain times, during these uncertain times, I couldn't tell you the brands associated with those terms anymore because it's all white noise to me. It doesn't differentiate. So if a small business were to try to do that same thing that these big brands are doing, they end up getting lost in that same white noise. So you're right. It's about saying, okay, here's what my clients need. Here's why the other people are talking to 'em and here's how I can do it in a more empathetic, more thoughtful, more connective way. And yes, often that is much more delightful too, because the things that release the endorphins are the things that our brain says, Hey, I want to take a closer look at and we buy on emotion. We justify on logic. So as a small brand, you have to be more intelligent about how you trigger that. Cuz you don't have brute force on your side. You don't have volume on your side.
Max Gerson (08:12):
If you've already put one out there it's okay, Adam doesn't wanna make you feel bad. He doesn't wanna make me feel bad. But we jumped on that bandwagon too. So I think the bigger lesson here is how quickly things are moving, how the zeitgeist, the societal mindset, every two weeks, it's a new reality. Like a lot of people are having good weeks right now that might not last. So again, I think the lesson here is that things are moving so quickly. Consumer mindsets are changing so rapidly. It's hard to produce evergreen content right now. I know that's usually the goal, but you have to be able to move quickly.
Max Gerson (08:56):
I agree with you. It's not a condemnation of that phrase. It's a representation of how much it's been used and the point behind what they're saying, you know, I remember the state farm one. Do you know why? Because they're forgiving payments to clients. They're doing something big and they're making an impact to their customers. Not because they opened it within these uncertain times though. They did open it with that. I remember their commercial message because of the impact they're making. So it's hard when you see businesses that are jumping on a messaging wagon and they're putting themselves in there. It's not that the message is wrong. You know, it's being used because it's, it's factual. It is an uncertain time. But does that help you to stand out in the ear of the listener? That's the question. It's not a judgment of right or wrong.
Max Gerson (09:47):
It's what are you gonna do to take your chance, your opportunity and make it count and telling people what you're doing instead of opening within these uncertain times, opening with something like serving people is all the more important today. You've got my attention. It's obvious that it is, but not, it's not a message I'm hearing everywhere. It tells me that there's something in it for me. So it's just about pivoting where we, how we talk, especially in those small business markets, because with a limited budget, limited tools, limited opportunities, we can't sound like everybody else. It just, it isn't a luxury. We have
Max Gerson (10:27):
The lesson for business owners is that there's more noise now than ever. We're all online, but it's noise. How do you get through, how do you get let in? And part of the reason why this is challenging, is that again, just the consumer mindset is just evolving. No one is running the old pandemic montages anymore that had a very short shelf life. So if you care about getting let in, if you care about being delightful to your audience, you need to hit them with more frequency, right? And that's not, it's not a bad thing because I think we all need to be creating more content more frequently. Adam, talk to me about how you create integrity through frequency in marketing,
Max Gerson (11:15):
The human brain doesn't really understand one offs to begin with. You know, I, I've been doing a lot of reading and studying during this time on neuroscience. And as simple as it is that old Sesame street song, which one of these things does not belong here, which one of these things is not the same. If you are communicating with a customer and they see something and they repeatedly see the same look, feel it can be a different message, but it's on brand. It's on message. It's on campaign. And then they decide that it's worth looking further at and they Google it and they land on your website and it feels completely incongruent with the things you've mailed to them. The buyer's journey stops. The human brain does not know how to sort two things that are alike that are supposed to be alike. And it's end answer without having, you know, unless you have a person who's very strong minded and wants and their desires push them through it.
Max Gerson (12:20):
But neuroscience tells us when we see two things that are, are, are not alike that are meant to be alike. It tells us it's broken. It's wrong. It's not good. And who's gonna buy not good, broken and wrong. So if your brand, whatever your widget or your service is, is irrelevant. If the human brain sees, you know, two different looks, feels experiences, it's gonna drive your sales into the ground because the human brain says something is broken with what they do. It's as simple as that. So when there's a lack of consistency and it can be, it can be so little. The human brain is fascinating when it comes to processing in and out and it's looking to select out. So things like different fonts. If you use a drastically different font in, in, in your website versus your print communication, the human brain says is this the same company? And they're gonna go looking for information to verify they're on the right site. How, where weird is that?
Max Gerson (13:28):
You, you see that all the time where a brand might have like a very like postmodern, clean, industrial feel to it. And then above the fold on the website, they've got this empathetic message written in like the live love, laugh font. Not only is it not readable, but like what? So you made a comment, Adam, like the human brain cannot understand one off. So I, I think that's really important. People relate to brands the same way they relate to other human beings, which is to say, we just tend to ignore them. So if you're a business owner, if you're marketing infrequently, here's what this feels like. Someone's knocking on your door. They're trying to sell you something. It feels thirsty. So what do you do? You don't wanna buy it. You just pretend you're not home. Maybe it'll go away. Oh, look, they win away. Perfect. But if they keep knocking, if you're used to them being there, that's just what they do. They just market. They they're always knocking on doors. It's just they're door knockers. And it doesn't feel like a one off. The second thing that you reminded me of is when you started talking about the human brain, if it cannot be remembered, it cannot be understood.
Max Gerson (14:45):
So you made me think of this. Do you ever get a call from arc arc to donate stuff? When they're coming through your neighborhood?
Max Gerson (14:53):
Maybe
Max Gerson (14:54):
They tend to call in the evening and, and we are thrift store donators. So I tend to see that come on my I, I, and I'm old school. I have a home phone with a caller ID. So they'll call my home phone and I'll see arc come up. And every time they call, it's always Jane from arc. It doesn't matter who you're talking to. They introduce themselves. Hi, my name's Jane from arc. And it creates such a comfort. They're able to ask for donated items. They call every month and it doesn't matter what their name is. You know, it's, it's actually a fairly brilliant thing for a charity nonprofit because it gets you past the human barrier of, I don't know you well, I know when ARC's calling it's Jane from arc and there's a psychological barrier that drops. And I even laugh now because I know it's a different person saying this is Jane from arc.
Max Gerson (15:52):
And I have a good laugh with that person. Hey Jane from arc ha haha. but yes, I have donations for you. So it works for them because it ends up that's their pipeline, that's their business model. And they have to get into homes and have homeowners and, and individuals, especially in a place where, you know, we have a do not call list. They could easily be told don't ever call me again. But when you get your monthly call from Jane, from our people, don't do that. And that's the psychological thing. It's not a one off, it's not some random dude. It's my monthly call from this one person. And so whether it's a door, knock, a mailer, a website, ping an email of social media, all of this, one off fits and starts stuff. Just don't. I don't mean to sound rude, but you're wasting your own time because nobody, nobody sees that. It, it, the human brain doesn't process one-offs so if you're not gonna do it consistently, no offense, don't do it at all. <Laugh> like to save your time and do something else.
Max Gerson (17:02):
Yeah. I mean, I, I think a lot of business owners, they fuss about it. It's gotta be perfect and they're just getting in their own way, right?
Max Gerson (17:12):
It, it's not artwork. It's marketing. It's not the Mona Lisa. It's not gonna hang on a wall, be permanently Googled.
Max Gerson (17:19):
The most important thing is not, you know, the quality of the piece, the most important thing is habitualizing the activities that drive business outcomes. So how does Plum do that? What do you guys do? How do you solve this problem for people?
Max Gerson (17:37):
End of the day, the tool that we utilize is direct mail and there are a lot of great ways to tie direct mail to things like digital. And it's really about, as we get to know our customers, customers, our clients and users, what speaks to them. You know, I work with one organization. We send out 10,000 letters a month. I personally think they're kind of ugly, but they're also like Novocain. He gets almost an 80% response rate. All he's asking is for people to send in receipts from the grocery store,
Max Gerson (18:14):
Did you say 80%,
Max Gerson (18:16):
80% response rate.
Max Gerson (18:18):
Wow.
Max Gerson (18:19):
Wow. And his ask is, send me your grocery receipts and I'll send you a bunch of coupons. Essentially. He collects data to sell, to Frito lay and to all the food companies on buying patterns especially of older Americans who don't necessarily report things online. So for him to be able to provide that data is invaluable for him. And so he sends out these letters that look pretty plain pretty may, and he gets an, and it's an, it's a six page letter and he gets an 80% response rate. And the flip side is we worked with a company last year that created what I consider one of the most elegant looking cards. It was a foil embossed invitation card in an envelope. We helped them send out 10,000 of 'em. It was a one time, one off. It didn't look like anything else they'd ever done. They got three RSVPs off of the cards going into it. I was shocked. I was like, you're handing these out, right? No, we're gonna mail 'em. Yeah. Sometimes you give your best advice and they do it anyway, but it, it it's, it's looking at what the end customer's goal is. It's about looking at how they listen, what's gonna speak to 'em and then creating as many touches as that mindset needs as well.
Max Gerson (19:38):
First of all, 80% response rate is insane. That is bonkers to me. When I was in automotive, we invested in direct mail. It was like maybe 1500, $2,000 a month. We needed to see two or three cars in the shop to break. Even we were breaking even maybe. And I was like, what is the deal? I hate this. We're sending out thousands of things. We're getting maybe five phone calls. So here's the pivot. Instead of mailing them out that way we created new concept, you've been spotted. We were serving car enthusiasts that really identify with their vehicle, right? These are people that connect to the, to the rest of the world, through their car. They want you to look at their car. They want to talk about their car. They want you to think their car is cool because it is, and it's really important to them.
Max Gerson (20:42):
So what we started doing was just giving everyone in the shop of stack of these, to put in their car. And when you see the kind of car that you wanna work on in the shop, if you're fussing that we keep giving you like these just awful repair jobs, tell me what you wanna work on. Put the flyer on the car. And it says you've been spotted. Like you're one of us. You've, you've got a cool thing. We've got a cool thing. Let's do cool stuff together. That type of thinking. And we would just leave it on their windshield because even if it, even if they're happy with their shop, that's kind of a compliment. It's like, you know, it's a thumbs up as you drive by there, nothing wrong with that. If we're lucky, the whole team across the whole team, maybe we're doing one a day. Right. But we're getting lots of calls on a much smaller cost basis because instead of just whing and be like, we're open, like this is what we do. Here's a coupon. Like no, no coupons, no discount, but just like you got a cool car, we got a cool shop. Let's play.
Max Gerson (21:49):
So I have a, a client that I've brought on in the last six months who is in the automotive repair industry. He's part of a large national franchise. And that franchise organization from corporate sends them a budget every month to use for direct mail marketing. They were using another company and told me almost exactly the same story. You just told me about what they were getting out of their direct mail. And because corporate wanted it, they were gonna keep doing it. But boy, wouldn't it be nice if there was a better way. And I smiled at him and I said, if we can show you a better way, you wanna switch over here. He said, absolutely. So here's what we did for them. We created a segmented message, doing very much what you talked about, but instead of looking for the specific high end, you've been spotted one, one at a time, we looked at the area around a shop and we looked at what cars, because public records include car ownership. So we looked at the Subaru owners first and we put together a thing that said Colorado and Subaru is like hand and glove. And we know that as a Subaru owner, you wanna make sure that your car's ready to go to the Hills. So we're your local Subaru repair shop so that you know, that your Subaru is being taken care of by Subaru people. And it, the offer was a free detail. And, and the way we put it on the Subarus was we'll wash the mud off next time. So it's
Max Gerson (23:28):
Stuff love. I love that.
Max Gerson (23:29):
Yeah. It's stuff that speaks to a Subaru owner. Well, the same time they do a lot of Audis. They do a lot of BMWs. So we did another message to them that said, you didn't buy a performance car so that it can chug along and not perform. You bought it. So you could feel the wind in your hair. And the same thing we detail we gave 'em a detail, a, a cleaning, but it was for them. It was we'll make sure it sparkles and shines for the next time you go cruising. And so it was only to the owners of those automobiles targeted with a message, knowing that they're also more likely to take a higher level of care on their vehicle. And his response rate, we actually lowered his spend by $500. He went from 2000 to 1500 cuz the addresses, the number of matches was smaller.
Max Gerson (24:21):
And now he's targeting higher end vehicles sending out fewer spending less. And the month before everything went to, to, to closed and he's still working, but he hasn't, you know, the numbers are down across the board on repairs. But in February when we had it in full effect, he three times overpaid for his campaign. He was barely breaking even before. So it's really is about knowing who, knowing what and targeting and eliminating. I mean, no offense. If, if you've got a 1999 Hyundai, you're not gonna service it the way an audio will. <Laugh> it just isn't the way it is.
Max Gerson (25:01):
Here's the lesson. Even if you're not an automotive, if you are business owner and you're pushing a message out and you're not getting any traction, it's because whatever you're saying, no one cares about. So I have this on the wall of my office on a big poster and it says 90% of your target audience doesn't know you exist. And doesn't want to know you exist. A lot of automotive marketing right now says we're open and we're clean. And like we'll pick up your car, drop it off. But the reason that I I'm a car guy, but my brain works differently. When I think about other people's I just consume it differently. So my brain is like shouting at me to ignore this instead of it just happening passively. But I'm a car guy and I don't care about that ad. Why do I not care about that ad?
Max Gerson (25:53):
Even if I'm the right person it's because I filled up my tank once in the last six weeks, I don't have a relationship with my vehicle cuz I don't need it. Right. What do I need to? You could gimme a free oil change. I don't, I don't need a oil change. I might never need my oil changed. Give me a reason to care about my car. Connect with me there. Right? Your car is the only thing you have. That's your escape, right? That's your treat. Come put a shiny part on your car and go for a canyon drive. We'll tell you where to go, but like treat yourself.
Max Gerson (26:32):
Well, we live in an era of identity being so integral in, in our politics, in our buying decisions, in all of it. If you are not looking at how people self identify and marketing to that, you are really missing the boat because I mean, I've never seen the phenomenon. Like we see it today. You know, it used to be, I'm a Coke drinker or I'm a Pepsi drinker. I'm a Coke person. I'm a Pepsi person we've seen in the last 10 years, that language shift. But if you think about what it means, people have an identity tie to things. They buy to brands, to car companies. And so if you are not speaking to how they self identify through these things, it doesn't matter. Like it dislike it except reality. And know that there are people. I mean, I drive a VW. I'm a Volkswagen guy.
Max Gerson (27:32):
I will tell you that having bought a Volkswagen and driven a car with a turbo, my next car is a Volkswagen. I'm a VW guy now. And it it's visceral. It's weird, but it's human nature. We identify we're tribal in that way. So if you're wanting to make things work in a way where they're effective, stop being a junk mailer, don't expect everybody's to gonna be part of your tribe. You may serve two or three tribes, but if you're not specifically speaking to an identity definition in what you do and you're just throwing futures and benefits, unless you're Bed Bath and Beyond, nobody cares about your mail. It to everybody coupon. Nobody cares.
Max Gerson (28:18):
People don't want to buy goods and services. Sometimes they do. But for most of what we sell, we can't focus on the product. We have to focus on the, the process perhaps, but really we need to get to relationships, stories and magic. And the language you used on that Subaru campaign is perfect. Will wash the mud off. Next time we understand what that means. It connects to like the call to action, a free detail. But the most important thing that it does is it gets me to start, not just thinking but dreaming. It creates a visual concept in, in my head, Stephen King on writing. If you haven't read that book, it's Stephen King talking about the craft words should not be read. They should be visualized. And isn't that why he's such an amazing author. But when you say we'll wash the mud off next time in my mind, I have an image. It happened immediately. It's like a 16 inch Subaru wheel, a factory mud flap. And just like a little bit of chunky mud sticking to the outside. I just like that came in my mind and I was like, yeah, let me go. Where can I go get it muddy. Let me get excited about that. Let me get excited about free detail afterwards, especially for my wife's car, man, I get to be a hero.
Max Gerson (29:47):
I'm gonna mud it up. I'm gonna run it hard and then I'm gonna go get it tuned and cleaned. And when I return it to my wife, it'll be running beautifully and clean. And she won't know that I went and played.
Max Gerson (29:59):
Let's shift gears here a little bit. This is a Brand Wolfe podcast Branding For The Rest Of Us, where we promise big ideas for small business. And we do that by introducing you to some of the most interesting people you've never heard of. And today that interesting person is Adam Kemper of Plumb Marketing. We've been talking a lot about how to get people, to let us in because that's what business owners need. That's what I need. That's what we all need right now is I need to execute a marketing campaign that will move the needle today, right? We're not getting a lot of people asking for, for logos and strategy and VI like this has gotta work right now.
Max Gerson (30:45):
And Adam was telling us a lot about how frequency creates integrity, how you can't just tell people about features and benefits you have to today during the great lockdown during this whole bag of nails, you have to give them a reason to care about something. It, you could be talking to the exact right person, right? I'm a target demographic for anyone that wants to sell me cool truck parts for my Chevy. I am buying. I like I wanna buy that stuff. And I've been getting served ads, but I haven't been interested in it because I don't have a much of a relationship with my truck cuz I don't use it. Right? So you have to make people care about something. So Adam at, at Plumb Marketing Plumb Marketing is an agency in Denver that specializes in direct response, direct mail. Adam told us a story about a client that has an 80% response rate, totally bonkers, like unheard of. I mean, this is, this is like, this is the first two years of Mike Tyson's career. Like that's,
Max Gerson (31:50):
They're total unicorn. They're a total unicorn.
Max Gerson (31:54):
If, if you're a small business owner and you, you, you just can't afford Plumb. You can't afford Brand well, if you, you can't afford anything, but you're willing to invest some time. How do you do it? What are some ideas I know you've got 'em
Max Gerson (32:12):
Absolutely. I mean, picking lane is the biggest thing I'm gonna start with. You know, when people say they're gonna market, they look at all these ideas, they look at all the wisdom, they get, they get all this input and then they do the shoulds in their mind and should is fine. Unless it's not aligned with your energy, your intentions, your, your cans. And so you see who do these, you know, 10 days on social media, that's really intense. And then it all fades away. If that's not your thing, don't do it. Pick something that really speaks to how you think as an individual, because it is still your business. You still have that, right. But then once you make a decision and say, you know what, doing LinkedIn is really within my skillsets, my mindset, then I, I challenge people, sit down and write out and Hey, I'm I got Max's notepad right here.
Max Gerson (33:11):
Let me, let me tell you, I, I keep, I keep notes in this all the time and it's, it's a schedule, you know, a to do list. You know, I'm gonna write out a plan of 20 posts in 20 days, and then I'm gonna check 'em off my list. As I do each one, or I'm gonna say 20 posts in 40 days. And the days in between, I'm gonna comment and share somebody else's posts on LinkedIn, but it's, it's a consistency. And it's, it's looking at once I choose a platform, once I choose Elaine, what am I gonna do to educate? What am I gonna do to create value? What am I gonna do to help the potential customers? Cause one of the things people worry about is, oh, if I give it away for free, they'll do it. And they'll never buy me. No, if you give 'em something for free and it works for 'em and they do it themselves great.
Max Gerson (34:01):
But you got two categories of people there, either the people who can, or the people who can't and the people who can't will come to you and the people will, who can, if it works, they're gonna turn around and go, oh my gosh, max gave me all these great ideas. I did 'em myself. I wanna talk to max more. Maybe there's things that I can't do that he can do. That'll even further push me to the next level. So it's really about a consistency. It's about a, you know, again, taking your message out regularly and, and there's great places. And, and there's things like you know, I don't know if you've have ever gone on there in max, but Harrow, H a R O is one of my favorite places to take a daily glance at cuz my dream is to become Dr. Dave NEDA, if you've ever watched the local news, he's a local doctor who went on har enough times that he got found and all the news agencies bring him on when there's a medical thing because Dr. Dave Knight and knows what he's talking about. And that's great because now his practice doesn't have to market as much because every time Dr. Dave Knight is on the news, somebody Googles it. And the first thing that comes up is his private practice.
Max Gerson (35:15):
So what you're talking about is picking a platform, choosing Elaine, just being consistent. Maybe you have a great message. Maybe you have something helpful to share, but I wanna take it down below that that might be too hard for some people, right? Let's say you're a business owner. You've got time. You don't have any money and you don't have a good message. You're not a good communicator, but you know, you need to do more marketing. So here's an idea just because it's not online does not mean it didn't happen. And it's not marketing the lowest hanging fruit for any small business are your existing customers and your past customers, right? These are the people that have already chosen you that have already eaten in your restaurant. They, they like the food. They, they just got what they needed, but these are the people you can just send a thank thank you for being a client like three years ago. I really appreciate that. Or just a little gift. When, when people show interest in you and your brand, you have to reward good behavior. So what we do at Brand Wolfe is a lot of thank you notes and a lot of little touches.
Max Gerson (36:28):
Well, and, and I think it goes deeper than that, max, as well, because you said don't know business owners who don't know even where to start, don't know where to go. Don't know what to say. Your previous satisfied customers, your existing satisfied customers are the greatest source for your marketing message. And they give you a great excuse to talk to. 'em Reach out on a phone call say, Hey, max, I wanna sit. Is this a good time? Can I take five minutes of your time? You've been working with us for three years. You've always seemed pretty happy with us. And I wanna have a Frank conversation. Can I ask you, why are you happy with us? What about what we do keeps you buying from us and customers love that experience. You care enough to know why you wanna understand me better, but at the same time, you as a business owner are gaining the most valuable information because when they say things like you made my life so much easier in this way, there's your marketing copy.
Max Gerson (37:37):
There's your starting premise for a post, whatever you wanna do, how you made their life easier is what's going to also attract the next customer. They're telling you. I bought cuz of this. I, you know, justified it to my boss, my wife, whatever using this. But I really bought from you because boy, you made me feel really great about how you served me in this area. And that's, that's your marketing copy. So it's benchmarking, it's creating an understanding from the customers side of why they're buying from you. And it also helps keep 'em as you know, creates greater loyalty, cuz they love being asked that
Max Gerson (38:23):
And 87 second response and a million dollar lesson again from Adam, your brand, isn't what you say it is. It's what they say it is. Well, how do you figure out that you just ask the fancy way to phrase, this is qualitative market research. The easy way to understand it is just talk to your customers, ask them what things did you do for them that were really valuable. What other things did you do that were less valuable? And just tell me a story about what it was like to work with us.
Max Gerson (38:58):
Mm-Hmm
Max Gerson (38:58):
<Affirmative>, that's so important. So I wanna reframe how I think a lot of business owners think about marketing as well as ROI. I'm gonna invest this much. I'm gonna invest 10 grand to get a hundred thousand, right? It's poker. It's a bet. You know, what do I have to put in the pot to, to get this much money, right? You don't wanna spend a million dollars to get a million dollars. Doesn't work very well. So a lot of people ask, you know, what can you guarantee? What can you guarantee? But a lot of the tactics right now are not about necessarily more of a good thing.
Max Gerson (39:39):
Some we can reframe how we think about marketing as protecting what we already have protecting our current book of business. Let's not backslide. So if you are in that position where you're a small business, you have a low volume. People love you. You have no idea how to market your message. You have no budget, it's you're scared, but you have this instinct to do something. Talk to past clients, ask them for feedback, send them a little gift. It could, it can literally just be a thank you note, do the same thing for your current customers. Take really good care of the people that you are serving today. And this is marketing by, by talking to them, a thoughtful email, a thoughtful gift, something in the mail. These are all brand experiences and these are all communications that you can do with no budget. As long as you have the time that drive business outcomes. This is a different way to think about marketing.
Max Gerson (40:51):
Well, and, and, and I think it also opens up to circle back around to some of the stuff you, you started with, you know, pick 10 people that you wanna talk to create a small campaign that really speaks to 'em. How do you figure out what speaks to 'em go to a customer who is in your eyes, in your understanding of who they are, cuz you're gonna know them better than you're gonna know your prospects. Go to that customer that represents that demographic. If there's a customer that is your, your highest volume buyer or the, the largest organization that you work with and you can have that conversation about why you value us, what, what we do for you, not tactically, but what problems do we solve? Why do you feel better? After working with us, it then allows you to branch out. Maybe ask them some questions that are out of the box, but at the same time, they're in a box that you need answers to.
Max Gerson (41:50):
Like what's the last book that you read that inspired you because if it inspired them, what about sending it to a guy who owns a similar business? Who you in your mind say, this guy's very like this customer I have. Now you have an idea of a book to send him, you know, it's not the first touch, but when you send him a book, it's not just something off the bookshelf that you hope. They'll like, it's, you know, I work with a com another business owner who you seem very much alike with. You seem, you seem like you are a visionary in the same way. And he told me this book was inspirational to him. I really liked it myself. And I thought I would share it with you as well it's
Max Gerson (42:32):
Or let me now I'm gonna keep going. All right. So you've, you've got that person. Maybe you want to get a great gift for them. Maybe you don't, but you know, they've got kids and you know that the boy is five years old, send him Legos, give, make him the hero to his kid that day, you know, the wife likes to cook, send them an awesome, just like some big, crazy butcher knife that no one would have. That's just a cool thing for the kitchen. Right? give him something that makes him look great to his, what he will remember that.
Max Gerson (43:12):
Exactly.
Max Gerson (43:13):
Exactly. And there's no messaging involved with that. It's just being thoughtful. It's just being deliberate. It's just saying, if you buy from me, I'll probably do a good job. Won't I look how hard I'm swinging the bat here.
Max Gerson (43:30):
Mm-Hmm
Max Gerson (43:30):
<Affirmative> because so much of sales, isn't about proving to the other person that we're the best at what we do. You can't actually prove that by the way. So you shouldn't say it, but just proving to them that we're not gonna screw it up. I mean, I think about that with contractors all the time, and aren't a lot of marketing vendors, contractors, in some sense of the word, there's no barrier venture. You don't have to get, it's not like being a doctor. Right. I distrust my plumber until I trust him. And once I trust him, I love him. And now if I'm out of the house and you know, there's a flood in the basement, I just leave the front door unlock and tell the, just go do what you gotta do and leave the bill on the counter.
Max Gerson (44:16):
Mm-Hmm
Max Gerson (44:17):
<Affirmative> right. But, but that's so much of sales is just proving to the, the other person, not this big, lofty, crazy concept that you can barely communicate that they don't even care about. I do the thing I'm really good at it. I care about you. I'm not gonna screw it up, that's it?
Max Gerson (44:35):
Absolutely. You know, this is where, you know, my, my pop culture nerd them comes in. I, I use a lot of movie references among other things. And there's a movie. My wife loves and I, I love it because she loves it. And it's called phenomenon with John Travolta. And he's this dude. And he gets these weird powers, but there's the sub part. There's this woman in town that he's, he's, he loves. And she doesn't really notice him, but he love he's fallen in love with her first sight from a distance. And she knows he exists at a very minimal level, but he wants to win her heart. And you know, it's a great marketing case study cuz isn't dating and winning, you know, the love of another sort of a marketing campaign. And so this woman makes these chairs out of like sapling wood from the forest and they're all handmade chairs.
Max Gerson (45:27):
And she sells them at a local shop. And one day when his buddy shows up and he comes around to this side porch and he opens the door and it's full of her chairs, it's stacked floor, ceiling, wall to wall with the chairs. And he looks at his buddy and he's like, wha what are you doing with all these? And he says, you've never seen so much joy on her face. As you do the moment she comes to the store and sees that somebody has bought her chair. And I live for that moment because she's so full of joy. I've brought her that joy and, and he looks at his buddy and he's like, you just need to find a woman and figure out what her chairs are. And I think the wisdom in that sentence is so great because if you can figure out what your customer's chairs are and buy them from them emotionally and see that smile on their face.
Max Gerson (46:18):
When you create that smile, the human brain neuroscience also tells us that when you are pleased, you look to reinforce and logically justify why your pleasure is right. Why it's okay, why it's good. So if Mac serves me with a bunch of great brand marketing and my phone's ringing off the hook and people are like, whoa, your brain's great. You're smiling ear to ear. And your brain is going well. That's cuz you chose to work with max. So it's, it's, it's about inserting yourself into that brain pattern and saying, how am I gonna make people smile? How am I gonna buy their chairs? So that they'll smile and then justify that I'm right. And it doesn't, again, it go, it doesn't go back to big, spends big plans. It goes back to little details and understanding the people you serve and who they are so that you can serve others like them.
Max Gerson (47:19):
We could do this for hours, Adam, this is, this has been great. There have been so many lessons. We've we've learned about your superpower of being let in. And you've taught us a lot of less. Every response to my question has been a lesson, an insight. And we've even gotten down from this, this high level marketing talk to I'm a small business owner. I need to do something. I don't have a message. What can I do? Send gifts to your people, ask them why they buy from you, but be grateful, be delightful for that other person. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> right. Be the brand that loves you back. And that can just be as simple as a thank you. Note a gift card, a toy for your client's kid because you know, they have kids. Mm Hmm <affirmative> make them the hero to their people. Adam, I know you want to get in touch with more small business owners in Denver and Boulder. And I know there's a lot you can do for them. And look, we connected in Colorado thought leaders form where both heart level leaders were go givers. We give, before we receive, what are you gonna do for the people that are listening? They're like, Adam's brilliant. I get it. I need to talk to him. I'm scared. I can't afford him. What can you do for someone today?
Max Gerson (48:37):
I wanna walk, offer anybody who wants to reach out and schedule with me some time to sit down. I wanna help them to lay out a starting point, not a pitch, not a sales plan, a plan for them to identify. I love this. I'm unique. Just like everyone else. Let's identify what it is that you wanna do to be unique and where you want to go with it. You know, if, if, if, if you're using the words, anybody and everybody to define who you're serving, I definitely wanna meet with you because nobody in our world has the budget to market, to anyone and everyone let's figure out who it is that you truly serve. And then let's figure out what makes them love you. So I wanna meet with folks to help them to build that strategy, whether it's in their own way, whether it's partnering with other people in their business, whatever it is, I wanna meet them where they're at in their business and offer them the opportunity to create a starting point to move forward, to do something down the road. It may mean getting to work with them. But right now that's not my goal with this. It's just to help these folks know, you know, we here so often marketing feels like eating a whale. I'd like to sit down with you and lay out where you wanna take the first bite from. You're gonna choose. Not me. I just wanna help you make a confident decision that I think this is the place to bite the whale <laugh>.
Max Gerson (50:14):
So people are gonna reach out to you. What you're offering to them is 60 minutes to sit down, let's come up with a list, an actionable list and something that is realistic that we can do with that list, right? Absolutely that's, that's a thousand dollars consultation that is so important. Most business owners don't wanna pay for diagnostics because it doesn't fix the car, but it needs to happen. And basically Adam's giving you di a diagnostic and a flight path that you can lever to pull. So that's awesome. Adam, would LinkedIn be the best place for people to find you
Max Gerson (50:58):
A very active on LinkedIn? Of course. Also they can email me directly at Adam@plumbmarketing.com and Plumb with a B
Max Gerson (51:07):
P L U M B. That is Adam plumbmarketing.com. You can also find him on LinkedIn where this podcast will be promoted aggressively. We're gonna knock on a lot of doors with this content because I believe this show is a gift to small business owners who are curious about what they can do today to protect their book of business and to grow it in a sustainable way.
Max Gerson (51:36):
Absolutely.
Max Gerson (51:37):
Adam, thank you for being on the show. Thank you for serving our audience with a lot of energy, a lot of facts and truths ideas and actionable insights. Ladies and gentlemen, if you need more frequency in your marketing, if you need to execute a campaign, if you need the phone to ring tomorrow, if you need the email to blow up tomorrow, you need to talk to Adam yesterday, but it's not too late. So reach out to Adam, talk to him clearly. He's great at what he does. And he's aligned with an agency that can multiply his superpower for your benefit. And I really believe in what you guys are doing. 80% response rate. That's all you need to know. That is all you need. I'm sorry to set the bar so high, but what did you expect here, buddy?
Max Gerson (52:31):
Right? Yeah. And I'll tell you that that is not necessarily gonna be typical of other results, but I will also say, you know, one of my favorite things to see is, is to see that business owner who regardless of 80%, 20% who looks at me and says, I'm not living hand to mouth. Like I was six months ago. And the only thing that's changed is working with you guys. Now that tells me that we're doing something to impact that business and the business owner's life. Again, it's not just about marketing, it's about serving. And when I serve in a way where a business owner goes, the Wolfe is no longer at the door and it's because I've got marketing, that's working. It just fills my heart with so much joy.
Max Gerson (53:22):
This is the Brand Wolfe podcast Branding For The Rest Of Us. Thank you for listening. You can find the Brand Wolfe podcast anywhere you get your podcast. We'll see you next time.